evanjane:

Whether it’s Adam’s fans repeating the mantra of Homophobic America

Especially, if people who are in Adam’s corner are labeling most of America, homophobes. I know it bugs the hell out of me.

Respectfully, I think you are misstating the position of many of Adam’s fans here. This whole thread started when Gene Simmons was quoted as telling Adam Lambert to “shut the f**k up” about his sexuality. Why? Because, according to Gene, the masses living in Wisconsin and Nebraska and the rest of the world are homophobic and Adam was, in effect, killing his career by discussing it.

The majority of Adam fans responded by saying, uh, wrong, Gene. The fact that Adam did as well on the show as he did demonstrates that a ton of folks could care less about his sexuality, that the times they are “a changin’” and that Adam has most certainly not killed his career. And, oh by the way, Gene, you’re a big old hypocrite if you think that the folks in Wisconsin and Nebraska want to hear about your sexual exploits and how you’ve (allegedly) screwed some 2,000 (unfortunate) women.

I think the person labeling America as homophobic is Gene Simmons, not Adam’s fans.

Which is not to say that homophobia doesn’t exist in this country. I personally think it does and that it hampered Adam’s initial attempts to break into the recording industry when he attempted to segue there from musical theater. I think Adam has stated quite clearly he wasn’t sure how he would be received by the AI viewing public, and the tears in his eyes during the recent MJ night repeat were a poignant reminder of how grateful he felt to receive the support of the judges and the studio audience in one of those early performances, especially since those kissing pictures had just hit the airwaves and were all over the news. I guess the only issue I have is with people who try to deny that homophobia exists at all or who argue that because we all have “differences,” it’s really a level playing field. It’s not and, imo, that’s a simplistic view of the world.

This is a big misconception. Adam had the cover long before he was to reveal his sexuality. The cover and his sexuality had nothing to do with each other, the story was just going to be fluff, but Adam wanted it to be more.

ETA: ****Now THAT would have been ‘heroic’  in my book.
yep, I am sure that would be considered heroic, to just stand up on the idol stage and say, oh, and by the way, I like dudes. Way to go Adam, context, please? Seriously’ ¦.
*** ****

There is a time and a place for everything, and I think Adam handled the situation very well. I liked that he did it on his own terms and to please himself not the scoop hungry media.

If they are aware at all, reading the back and forth bickering, will not help Adam. Especially, if people who are in Adam’s corner are labeling most of America, homophobes. I know it bugs the hell out of me.

I’m Christian. In fact, I’m Catholic. My brother-in-law is a Gay Catholic. My husband is a Divorced Catholic. I married in a non-denominational Protestant church, and in the eyes of the Catholic church, I’m not married. I can live with that because in my heart, in the deepest part of me, I believe in the end I only answer to God. I’m friends with very cool priests. It’s all good. My children are happy, I’m happy. TMI Iknow, but I felt it was necessary for some to see where my world-view derived.

It’s a different world with difficult choices to make. People are struggling day-to-day with ISSUES that have nothing to do with Adam Lambert being gay. He’s made peace with it, perhaps his fanbase should as well.

The media iniitially saw that the gay controversy “sold”. I’m sure there was a spike in sales for US weekly, People, Entertainment Weekly. I bought several magazines for Kris Allen that I normally don’t buy. The boys, hot off Idol, sold magazines. The media ran with it. No one I know bought Rolling Stone for Adam, even the ones that loved him. Last year, I bought it for David Cook and he as last year’s winner of American Idol wasn’t on the cover. He didn’t deserve it, not yet. He’s still paying his dues, building up his rock cred and audience. He had a nice piece inside with pictures. Coldplay was on the cover that year.

It was my “fervent” belief, Adam was on the cover because of the Gay reveal. That is where he said he chose to reveal it, in print. He thought it would be cool. There’s a lot of hot, proven artists out there that deserved the cover more. I am not berating Adam’s talent at all.

I am not here to convert you from your beliefs. I know whatever I say will not change that. No worries.

I believe Kris Allen and Adam Lambert were the best thing that happened to America, and I’m not talking talent-wise. They are what young America is all about — on the whole. America would have imploded long ago, if we as a nation couldn’t live together with all its diversity. I live next door to a Puerto Rican family and an Albanian family. Multi-cultural at it’s finest.

Kris Allen walks the walk. We should all do the same. Less lip-service, and more living by example.

Now I move on… Again, peace Laurel G. (I’ve finished debating this. Thank you.)

carolinacharms:

If you read what Gene says in this latest interview, you might reasonably conclude that while Gene believes Adam to be more than worthy of commercial success, he is, nevertheless, concerned that a broader cross-section of the American buying public might be turned-off by all the talk about his sexual orientation. That’s all! In other words, he’s of the belief that the ‘gay’  talk is but a distraction’“a distraction that threatens to overshadow all else. Simple as that.

Ummm, no, I think what he said was that Adam has killed his career. Killed it. In an instant. Simple as that. That’s my conclusion anyway, based on his words which speak for themselves and need no reinterpretation, imo.

And I think what Ross actually said was … “It seems almost heroic to me.” No, I don’t think anyone’s awarding Adam a purple heart just yet, but I do recognize that what he’s done already takes courage. A lot of other people do too.

Love Kris too. And his brand of Christianity.

I’m not awarding him a Purple Heart or anything, but what he’s doing does take courage.

Incidentally, this whole thing reminds me even more of why I love Kris. I am Christian, and it so often seems like most public figures who call themselves Christians are the ones comparing homosexuality to bestiality, so having someone like Kris come on the scene is truly inspiring.

Absolutely….

IsIsDagmar: Farm animals? Homophobes relating sex with sheep or cows to sex between two humans of the same gender? Never heard of it, and I don’t know anyone who would draw such a relationship’“directly or even tangentially. Ick

These comparisons are ubiquitous. Read any statement by anyone who opposes gay marriage, especially any politician. Read any statement by any pastor or other religious leader who opposes gay marriage. Look at any of the ads run or statements made about Prop 8. Listen to Rush Limbaugh. Turn on Fox News pretty much any time.

When people don’t approve of homosexuality, they compare it to bestiality, incest, and pedophilia. This is done constantly, and has been done for decades, especially by the religious right. You’re the first person I’ve ever come across, in any part of the country, who wasn’t aware of such comparisons, and I highly doubt that Simmons isn’t.

I’m not saying that he’s necessarily a “rabid homophobe” as Will said, but the fact that his mind jumped from gay sex to sex with animals (again, that would never happen with someone discussing heterosexual sex) speaks of at least some homophobia, whether conscious or unconscious. A “sick sense of humor” doesn’t lead someone to indirectly put gay sex in the same category as bestiality. Homophobia does that, and I’ve seen that comparison made too often to believe that it can be made innocently.

Those are just the facts. If you really don’t want to believe that his comments might contain offensive elements, you don’t have to.

As for Adam being heroic: he has said that he didn’t want to have to deal with questions about his sex life while he was trying to focus on the music and acclimate to his sudden fame, and he wanted his time on AI to be as much about him as a singer/performer as possible, so he just was himself without discussing it until after the show, which seems like a perfectly valid way of dealing with that situation to me. No one else was being commanded to discuss their personal lives at the expense of their music, so I don’t see why the fact that he is gay means he should have been the only one to do that.

I don’t think anyone’s claiming that Adam is the heir-apparent to Harvey Milk and MLK or anything like that. But it takes real guts to live your life being exactly who you are when who you are is considered offensive or weird or even evil by a significant chunk of society. I am straight so I’ve never had to deal with that personally, but a number of my close friends are gay, and seeing them be made to feel like second-class citizens (as Adam is made to feel constantly, and as all gay people will be made to feel until we have full equality in this country), yet seeing them still refuse to change or moderate who they are in any way, gives me tremendous respect for them. I have tremendous respect for Adam. I don’t completely know that the word “heroic” applies–I’d have to think about that one more–but I do know that he is determined to be exactly who he is, he’s doing something that no one has done yet (although many brave people have paved the way), and that takes courage. I’m not awarding him a Purple Heart or anything, but what he’s doing does take courage.

Incidentally, this whole thing reminds me even more of why I love Kris. I am Christian, and it so often seems like most public figures who call themselves Christians are the ones comparing homosexuality to bestiality, and I don’t recognize Jesus in that at all, so having someone like Kris come on the scene is truly inspiring.

Now THAT would have been ‘heroic’  in my book.

yep, I am sure that would be considered heroic, to just stand up on the idol stage and say, oh, and by the way, I like dudes. Way to go Adam, context, please? Seriously….

Farm animals? Homophobes relating sex with sheep or cows to sex between two humans of the same gender?

Oh of course! Bestiality, pedophilia, and incest are always compared to homosexuality by the most rabid homophobes.

ETA: I’m not saying GS is a necessarily a rabid homophobe, but he sure impersonates one well when he shoots his mouth off like that.

That particular quote is almost nonsensical; it’s a fragmented thought. And so I have no idea what he meant by it. It was certainly hypothetical. Perhaps he meant that the farm animal angle would actually (if true) be worthy of revelation, lol! Gene has a sick sense of humor, this we know. But seriously, he likely changed gears and just ended the thought with a “who cares?” because a) he was either lost in his own thoughts, or b) he meant to say that Adam should be talking more about his music.

Perhaps Gene believes that while his own exploits dovetail nicely with a fan-centric marketing strategy relating to a classically heterosexual, male-dominated rock and roll ethos, Adam’s confessions (and accompanying photo essays) do not.

GS did tone down his remarks a bit in this latest interview, so it’s useful to go back to his original statements, which he says he totally stands by.

Simple as that.

Really? This is what Simmons said originally: “Mostly he should shut up about his sexual preferences. We, America, the rest of the world, really don’t care,” Simmons said, adding, “I mean, if the story becomes ‘I prefer farm animals to,’ you know, who cares?”

1) Leaving aside the fact that Adam did the Rolling Stone thing because, clearly, until he laid it all out there, the sexuality speculation was going to continue (i.e. people clearly did care, too much), Simmons is hypocritical for telling anyone to shut up about their sex life given that he discusses his with great frequency and in great detail. And he doesn’t characterize this as just his concern about how American will react to Adam–he makes it clear that it is he who does not want to hear about being gay. So, what reason could there be for that when he clearly believes that everyone is interested in hearing about all of Simmons’ heterosexual exploits?

2) Much worse: “Farm animals”? He’s talking about gay people and the first thing that jumps to his mind to compare it to is sex with animals? Please don’t tell me that you actually think that he would have used such a comparison had he been referring to a straight guy’s sex life. Homosexuality gets compared to bestiality a lot by people who don’t approve of being gay. Simmons certainly sounded like that’ what he was doing, whether consciously or unconsciously. Maybe he was just being insensitive, but the two statement together paint an unattractive picture.

So he was at minimum hypocritical, at worst homophobic. That’s why people are upset at him. I actually didn’t have much of a reaction to it because Simmons’ opinion is a) his to express and b) doesn’t matter in any material way, but I did perceive elements of both hypocrisy and homophobia that I found irritating.

If you read what Gene says in this latest interview, you might reasonably conclude that while Gene believes Adam to be more than worthy of commercial success, he is, nevertheless, concerned that a broader cross-section of the American buying public might be turned-off by all the talk about his sexual orientation. That’s all! In other words, he’s of the belief that the “gay” talk is but a distraction–a distraction that threatens to overshadow all else. Simple as that.

I don’t think for one minute that Gene is a bigot or somehow sympathizes with bigots, and I don’t find this particular statement to be bigoted or in any way sympathetic to bigots. He was simply making an observation, as a marketing expert, relative to the apparent marketing strategy of Adam Lambert, to date.

But it is true that there has been no one in the US who has been openly gay when starting their career at Adam’s level of fame. That’s something that’s been remarked on and discussed by people from Ann Powers in the LA Times to Rolling Stone to Alex Ross, the New Yorker music critic … “there’s no sense that he’s ever tried to hide it,’  said Ross. ‘He’s totally matter of fact ‘” and that is really startling to see on mainstream TV. It seems almost heroic to me.’ 

Word to this and your entire post, isisdagmar.

evanjane:

I believe the fan girls propagated the Media’s focus on Gay Adam Lambert. They bought up, read, commented on anything Adam Lambert. Whatever sells.

So you’re saying it’s the fans’ fault that the media focused so intently on Adam’s sexuality? Because they were basically doing what all fans do which is to read up on, comment on and show an interest in their favorite? Sorry, I don’t buy that one bit.

The media may have thought that’s what the reading or listening public might have wanted to know about; they might have thought it made for a good story angle because no maybe-gay person (tm Ann Powers, LA Times) with such obvious talent and potential (who was also liked by the judges) had ever reached that stage of the competition before and been within striking range of the title. But to put this at the doorstep of Adam’s fans and say they caused all the talk about his sexuality? No, I don’t believe that’s true at all.

‘He’s enormously talented, best talent ‘American Idol’ has had, but I think he killed his career because now the conversation is not about his talent but about his sexual preference. He’s done.’ 

Because I , my family, my friends, the entire staff of the corporations we work with in North American ,in Asia and parts of Europe, are all of the same mind that Adam Lambert is the best new singer and performer we have encountered this year.

As to whether his career has been asphyxiated by prejudice, irrational biases or all sorts of phobia (including neophobia ‘“when the old fears the new ), the sales of his published records via iTunes show that his work is still alive . Today even with the Michael Jackson onslaught , Adam’s Madworld is still in the top 100 music videos sold at Itunes, after being there for about 12 weeks already. His album stayed on the iTunes top 50 until last week just when the MJ onslaught came on.

Not a bad career standing for someone who from the very first week of appearing on public TV at American Idol has been fodder for all controversies, jokes, name calling and all sordid you can think of. Adam not only survived but triumphed in a very classy way.

So I think the verdict as to whether Adam’s career is considered in rigor mortis would be handed down after two major litmus test – the first is the live concert ‘“ if everyone walks out on his set . (I believe it will be the opposite, everyone will have their energy all sucked out by the excitement of Adam’s performance they will not be able to leave the arena whole again.)

Secondly ‘“when his fresh album comes out by Thanksgiving and it sells Zero . Then Mr. Simmons we will hail you as the next Nostradamus.

EXACTLY!

FairyKing, I think that is the kind of thing that will hurt Adam. You can’t compare the buzz over Adam with the lack of buzz over Kris when the buzz is primarily about whether he is gay. That is the very heart of it all. The buzz needs to be about his talent not his lifestyle. We really have to wait until both artists have released their first album and we see how well they sell. I think they could both be very successful or they could both fall flat. It depends on promotion by their respective companies and also on the buying public. People are fickle.

Adam was getting a lot of buzz even before they were talking about his sexuality. People were talking about his talent, charisma and looks. If you read the early articles, they never referenced his sexuality, just about this sensational singer/performer, the likes of whom they’ve never seen on the idol stage.

If Scott had been gay, it would not be likely he would have gotten that much buzz, made RS cover, or have been on 20/20, Access Hollywood, gotten the YHA award, etc. Think about it.

I’m not fond of Gene Simmons or anything about his life style, but I do think that he is right in that Adam does not want the focus to be on his sexuality, but rather on his music. It was a calculated risk he took coming out in Rolling Stone. Just like hinting in another interview that he might be bi-sexual.

Adam does want to focus on his music. He has said that many, many times. Early on he said it’s about singing, not about who is kissing who. The press would not leave him alone about his sexuality, so he almost had no choice to officially come out in RS. In the other interview, he flat out said he was not bi-sexual, but he could be bi-curious as he has kissed women. I can see that in him because he is so charming, w/o even trying, especially with women. I think men are even enamoured with him because of his personality.

“Lambert was this season’s first major sensation, and remains its biggest star. “I’ve been an ‘Idol’ fan since Season 5, and as far as I can tell he’s the strongest musical talent who’s ever been in the competition,” said Alex Ross, music critic for the New Yorker. “Beyond the flair and style he’s a very technically secure, accurate singer who is especially good at getting the words across — diction and such — and finding different colors for different songs.”

“In terms of the sexuality question, that’s up to him to say, but he’s obviously not conventionally masculine in how he dresses and how he talks, and there’s no sense that he’s ever tried to hide it,” said Ross. “He’s totally matter of fact — and that is really startling to see on mainstream TV. It seems almost heroic to me.”

I don’t think that there is enough homophobia in the US to prevent Adam from having a successful career here, and even if I’m wrong, that would certainly be no barrier to international success. I think what’s annoying people about Simmons is that while many fans here believe that homophobia may have cost Adam the win (IMO it contributed, but it didn’t cause him to lose), they don’t believe that the buying public outside of Idol will have the same problems. (Plus, Simmons came across like it was him who had the issues with gay people–comparing homosexuality to bestiality?). We’ll just have to see.

From an article written by Amanda Fox — Successful gay and lesbian musicians

Elton John — 32 years “out of the closet”

Freddie Mercury — “never hid who he was or what he believed” “transcended the stereotypes many people held about the abilities of gay men to be true rock icons” — close to 29 years ago

Rob Hafford — Front man Judas Priest — “speculated to be gay as early as the late 1980’s, no one took it seriously” 1997 admitted to being gay. “Finally it seemed like the world of metal was ready to accept gay men could, in fact, be a part of the metal scene …” “for this Rob Halford is important in music history as he was the first openly gay world known heavy metal artist” — 12 years ago

Melissa Ethridge — “at a time when it was still a career killer, Ethridge proudly stood up as a lesbian woman”

Other notable successful gay and lesbian musicians: K.D Lang, Marc Almond of Soft Cell, Billie Joe Armstrong (bisexual) Green Day, Joan Baez, Long John Baldry of “You’ve Lost that Loving Feeling” fame, Meg Christian, Darby Crash of the Gems, Boy George, Sophie Hawkins, Daren Hayes of Savage Garden.

“What is important to take from this is that gay and lesbian singers have been around as long as there has been music. They cross all musical genres and are among some of the most beloved and successful musicians of all time.”

Being openly gay for Adam Lambert is as natural as breathing. (If I’m not mistaken, he might have used this very analogy himself.) He can thank those listed above for paving the way for him, some over three decades ago. Adam Lambert being a gay artist is not earth-shattering. In fact, in 2009 it shouldn’t even be news.

I believe the fan girls propagated the Media’s focus on Gay Adam Lambert. They bought up, read, commented on anything Adam Lambert. Whatever sells.
Kudos to Adam for being honest about his sexuality, but, as noted above, he wasn’t the first. I take my hat off to those who came before him. They were the true heroes.

On a sidenote — I find it interesting when G.Sims. mentions homphobic America, he’s an irrelevant ass, but when Adam Lambert fans make the same claim, it’s an absolute truth. At least 75% of Americans are Christians, most are open-minded, 20% probably are not. Hopefully, that’s true because, Adam will not be successful with his Idol fanbase alone. It would probably be in Adam’s best interest if his fans stopped the homophobic name-calling and sweeping generalizations about Middle America and Christianity. And who knows where those that are Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, and Hindu stand on this subject.

I hope Adam being gay does not become a fail-safe, if things are not as stellar as the predictions trumpted here. YMMV

Is Gene Simmons even paying attention to the world?

I also funny he’s talking about how Adam killing his career when Simmons has a shit ass show on A&E

but no one will ever be bigger than the Beatles. Our society, not to mention the music industry, just isn’t built like that anymore. It’s sort of like how we have great and famous actresses today, like Meryl Streep, but no one’s ever going to be an icon in the way that Katharine Hepburn and Audrey Hepburn were. That just doesn’t happen anymore.

I’d have to agree. I don’t think any of today’s music acts will get as big as the Beatles just as none of today’s actors or actresses seem as big as their counterparts from yesteryear.

It seems like lots of people know Adam in LA and his sexual preference is not a big deal and nor should be. Gene was just saying that the rest of the US may not be ais accepting and really Adam should just focus on promoting his music first. He said he was talented, he gave him lots of accolades.

I think Gene is overlooking the fact that Adam came in second in votes. Who was voting for him? His friends in LA? It had to be a few more people than that. The fact that he did that well with Idol’s conservative audience is encouraging. And I think that most people who voted for him knew or suspected that he was gay. It was a small number of people who were clueless and of those how many would change their vote now that they’re aware of it? That’s an even smaller number.

I’m not saying there isn’t a homophobic element out there because clearly there is. I’ve seen people leave comments online that he’s going to hell and don’t want to have anything to do with him. Of that group I have to wonder how many of them would have been interested in his music in the first place though.